Rachael Kohn: The great Dya Singh, a man who’s not just one of the most beautiful singers of the Sikh Scriptures, but a man of warmth, humour, and a surprisingly universal outlook.
Today you’ll meet him on The Spirit of Things, Radio National, with me, Rachael Kohn.

Rachael Kohn: The word ‘Sikh’ means disciple, and the tradition of Sikhism refers to the disciples of the ten gurus, or great teachers, of the faith.

The first was Nanak, who was born of a warrior class in the mid-15th century in the Punjab, what today is the border region of India and Pakistan. He was a follower of Bhakti or devotional Hinduism. But early on, he met a Muslim minstrel named Mardana, and the two organised meetings where the hymns that Nanak wrote were set to music by Mardana, and sung.

Nanak had a mystical experience which changed him forever. Having disappeared for three days, feared drowned, Nanak reappeared on the fourth day, pronouncing, ‘There is no Hindu; there is no Muslim’. And if you think that sounds a bit like the Apostle Paul, it would not be surprising, since the Punjab is where several languages, religions and cultures overlapped.

Perhaps that is why in that Babel of languages, music would reign supreme, being the main vehicle for carrying the message, which Nanak received from God. And for my guest Dya Singh, music is the most effective and universal way of communicating.

I caught up with him on a visit to Brisbane.

Rachael Kohn: Dya Singh, welcome to The Spirit of Things.

Dya Singh: It’s a pleasure to be here, thank you very much.

Rachel Kohn: Dya, singing is found in most traditions, but in the Sikh tradition, singing seems to be very important, very central. Why is that?

Dya Singh: The first master of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, realised that to draw crowds so that he can talk about universal truths, the best method was to start singing, and the Scriptures that he started writing were all compiled in music. The revelations came to Guru Nanak in music, so the Scriptures that we have are actually written in music.

Rachel Kohn: Does that mean that they’re given special markings, or they are written on...

Dya Singh: There are notations given, the ragas are given, and certain folksong strains are actually mentioned at the beginning of prayers. We have for example, I mean we know now, we have 31 ragas within our Scriptures, and which were actually written by our masters themselves, and also there are 12 strains of folk music actually written.

And within the Scriptures of our tenth master, there’s even mention of a ferenghi taal. Now the word ‘ferenghi’ means Western. Don’t forget, that was only 300 years ago, so it’s every possibility that there was some influence from the West which was adopted by our tenth prophet, and he called it ferenghi taal, which means that the best – well the advice given to us through our Scriptures is that the best means of becoming one with yourself is through the universal language of music.

You can’t do it through language because language has its limitations. Our brain is limited, we are always thinking of finite things. Our brain is not capable of struggling with the concept of the infinite. Even today, I mean if you look up at the sky, scientists are even now trying to work out what the size of the universe is, which means the mind refuses to accept the fact that it’s limitless. That’s the limitation of the mind.

Rachel Kohn: So that somehow music is a way of actually journeying to that limitless spot. But I’d like to ask you about the Raga, the Raag, because the Raag does seem to be one of the most important musical forms that is used in the Sikh tradition. Can you define it for us?

Dya Singh: The word ‘Raag’ itself comes from your vocal cords, Raag. You use your vocal cords to reach your inner self. The concept of Raag is to give you fairly rigid guidelines as to what notes you are going to sing, or play, and what is the style of playing it.

There are certain limitations. You first of all study these limitations over a number of years, and then you start improvising. It is when you reach that stage of improvising under those rigid conditions the base of certain intensity which develops within you; you are creating, yet you are staying within a rigid code.

Rachel Kohn: That’s very interesting, because there’s a kind of free form, and yet these is a form.

Dya Singh: Oh there is a very strong form.

Rachel Kohn: Now I understand there are Raags for the morning, for certain times of the day, for the seasons; what’s that about?

Dya Singh: Well I think the originators of the Raags were inspired at certain moments to come up with certain arrangements of scales. So that is why they got associated with those particular seasons, or the time of day etc.

But the Sikh belief is that there is no very strong inclination to sing a particular Raag only at a particular time. As the mood dictates, you sing it, it’s as simple as that. I mean I’ve found that since the advent of recording etc., no-one stops you from hearing a morning Raag in the evening. If you’re a night worker and you’re getting up at five o’clock in the evening, that’s morning for you, so if you feel inclined to hear early morning Raag at five o’clock in the afternoon because you’ve slept the whole day, what’s there to stop you? There are no limitations as such. The limitations, if there are any, is what your spirit dictates to you.

Rachel Kohn: Now Dya is that part of your own approach to Sikh music, because I do understand that you have said that you would like to demystify Sikh music, is that part of that process?

Dya Singh: Well I have been singing since I was about four years old. My father was a roving minstrel in Malaysia, and I was born in Malaysia, and then my father stayed on in Malaysia, and that’s where he spent most of his life.

Now I have picked up Raags and the folk music of the Punjab through my father; I have been singing it all these years. It is only in the last ten-odd years when I actually got introduced into world music, the idea being that our Scriptures and our music is not something just for us, it is for the whole of humanity. It is then I decided that if I was going to present this in a formal fashion then I must actually try and learn something about my background. It’s at that point I actually started learning, you know, get into books and start talking to people, because I was doing things spontaneously up to that point.

So I have myself been doing research into Sikh music over the last ten-odd years. I started a book which is not an autobiography or anything like that, it is actually like I said, demystifying the Raags. In other words, to simplify to the extent that anyone, even I, can understand them.

I think that’s very important. And in that process I think I have learned a fair deal about my own background and so yes, I do get cornered by certain traditionalists from the Sikh fraternity who have been used to doing things in one particular way for the last perhaps 100 years.

Rachel Kohn: I’d like to ask you about that, because I notice that you perform with some non-Sikh performers. How did the Sikh community respond to that kind of violation of the sacred tradition?

Dya Singh: Well look, I’m glad you asked that. Our first prophet, Guru Nanak, travelled half-way round the globe on foot, with a Hindu and a Muslim. Now how can the Sikh community who have been entrenched in their own ways for the 100 years, question me when I tell them, ‘Hang on a minute, our first Prophet himself travelled with a very multicultural group.’ So who am I? I’m merely following the footsteps of my master. And he did that 540-odd years ago; I’m doing it now into the 21st century. So they really don’t have a comeback on that.

In the beginning, as in most communities, whenever there is change there is opposition; there’s always the resistance to change. My belief is that I am not bringing in a change, I am merely bringing in the same change that my master did 500-odd years ago, simply that people should not become entrenched within their own beliefs, the globe is becoming a village, we are able to reach each other within seconds, we’re able to travel to each other within hours, which means that we must have a much more universal approach towards our way of life, and that is the way our masters intended.

So I’m not doing something out of the ordinary, I’m doing exactly what my masters did. And also the most important thing is that we are trying to reach the younger generation. We do not want huge generational gaps, and that is happening with the Sikh community, and hopefully I am building some sort of bridges between the generations by the examples that I am setting.

Rachel Kohn: Now I guess having an electric guitar and a didgeridoo sort of helps that along, doesn’t it?

Dya Singh: It certainly does. And also to show the universality of Sikh music.

All right, we were given certain notations by our masters as to how we are supposed to present our Scriptures, but nowhere does it say that there was any rigidity in it, and in fact our masters were very, very particular about the fact that you must find a sense of joy and ecstasy in whatever you’re doing.

I get a tremendous sense of joy and ecstasy out of an electric guitar and a didgeridoo, so that’s why I use them. Just like my master used only stringed instruments. For the last 100 years, Sikhs doing their kirtin I think everyone knows the word kirtin which is sort of religious congregational singing, they have been using an instrument called the harmonium.

Now I am using stringed instruments again by using the guitar or didgeridoo, or a wind instrument, using all sorts of variety of things. In fact I stumped one group when they said ‘Oh what’s this? You’ve got these multicoloured people with you; you are being sacriligious towards our sacred things’ etc.

And my only answer to them was ‘You’re using the harmonium aren’t you?’ They said, ‘Yes’. ‘Do you realise that the harmonium actually originates in Germany? It was brought over to India by the Lutheran church people, and also in India the harmonium is an instrument of beggars in the streets? And is that what you are using to actually expound our sacred music? Surely I’m doing a little bit better than that.’ Even though I don’t mind being called a beggar because I still love using the harmonium.

But it’s a pleasure to use musicians from other parts of the world who have similar views, because universal truths are the same. You’ve got to be nice to people, that’s a universal truth. Hell, nobody wants to dispute that. And the musicians have the same sort of a temperament that I have, in presenting the universal truths through world music.

Rachel Kohn:Dya Singh is my guest on The Spirit of Things Radio National, and being a singer he is a perfect representative of his tradition, which was founded by Nanak who, together with his Muslim minstrel friend, wrote hymns which remain central to the Sikh tradition. But that’s not the only thing he has in common with the founder. Dya Singh was an accountant, just like the founder of Sikhism. No wonder they found solace in music!

Now speaking of universal truth, it seems that the Sufi tradition with it’s Qawwali form of singing is very important in your performance. How does it come about that a Sikh performs Sufi music?

Dya Singh: Well it’s not really that alien, because my favourite singer on this planet was a gentleman called Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, and I was very fortunate I was able to spend some time with him as well when he came to Adelaide. I have learnt a great deal from him, and he has inspired me.

He is a Sufi master. He was a Sufi master. Not forgetting that he comes from the same part of the world that I come from; he comes from the Punjab as well, my origins are the Punjab. Qawwali singing is predominantly in the Punjab area, so our gurus made use of Qawwali singing in their repertoire as well because it’s part of the folk music of the Punjab, so it’s not something which is any way alienating.

Rachel Kohn: Well I understand that in the Punjab, which is that area between Pakistan and India...

Dya Singh: That’s right, yes.

Rachel Kohn: Qawwali music is to be heard in clubs and in film music; it has a popular kind of expression, but is that the kind of Qawwali music that you draw upon?

Dya Singh: No, no, no. Look, Qawwali music goes back to the 12th century. Of course because of its popularity, especially the beat, it has now gone introduced into Bollywood and into clubs and all that. Yes, I guess I am very taken up with the popularity of it as well, but more than that I think it was the vocal arrangements of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan which inspired me. The first time I heard him was in 1972, and from that moment onwards I wanted to ensure that I knew how to sing Qawwali. The same kind of techno rhythms...

Rachel Kohn: Is that the electronic sort of overplay?

Dya Singh: That’s right, yes. You know, drum kit overlays and all that sort of thing. But I like to see it done acoustically, with the electric guitar as well if required. But there must be the ability of the musicians to present it on stage, I think that’s very important. And also it must also have a deep sense of spirituality.

The only one problem we have with that is within Sikhism dancing is a taboo as a spiritual pursuit. So I am fairly wary of that. I mean I love to dance; my daughters love to dance, but in our Scriptures it is clearly mentioned that dancing should not be used as a spiritual exercise. It can be used as a physical exercise and for enjoyment, but it’s not for spiritual pursuits.

That’s the only problem, but even with Islamic Sufi Qawwali singing, dance is not part of it. It’s only singing. I mean God forbid Nusrat couldn’t dance anyway, he was a little bit oversized for that, but so am I, I’m going that way as well. But from a spiritual point of view I get a very spiritual high when I’m doing a Qawwali, and I think it has a tendency of rubbing off on the audience as well, and that is why we make use of Qawwali in all our repertoires.

A lot of the music is laid back, but there are other moments when you want people to sort of participate, and the best way they can participate with us is through the Qawwali because they can start clapping along with us. That’s why we make use of it.

Rachel Kohn: Now you’ve mentioned your daughters, and that brings up the family tradition. Nusrat himself came from a long tradition of singers, and you yourself had a father who was a singer. You perform with your daughters; is it very important that this retains a kind of familial expression or involvement?

Dya Singh: I think I’ve mentioned before that I am actually a chartered accountant. Now the one problem I faced when I came to Australia and my daughters were born here, was the generational gap. And I found that the only way I could communicate with my daughters was through music. So we have a common ground, and that is the way the masters intended it to be. And it’s that common ground which keeps my family and myself close. So my daughters are very close to me, through the medium of music.

Rachel Kohn: Can your daughters ever perform Qawwali the way you do, or do they always have to play a subsidiary role?

Dya Singh: My daughters, they can, but perhaps not in the Qawwali tradition, but more in the Raag tradition. Because basically the Qawwali tradition is a predominantly male tradition, so as to whether they can ever do that seriously, I don’t know, whether the inclination will be there either. But my daughters have certainly shown an inclination towards the Raags, and the more mellifluous sort of music.

I never stop them from singing the Whitney Houstons and all the Western, you know Michael Jacksons. They can do all that. As long as they find a certain depth within Raags, I think that is really my ulterior motive. Qawwali is by-the-by, really, because Qawwali is more folk tradition rather than the spiritual tradition that I come from.

Rachel Kohn: Dya let’s talk about the intention of your music. Qawwali is meant to arouse mystical love.

Dya Singh: Yes, yes.

Rachel Kohn: How does an audience which perhaps does not understand Punjab, say if you are speaking Punjabi, how do they connect with this intention, with this purpose of the music?

Dya Singh: This is the proof that music is a universal language. You don’t need to understand it from a logical, from a mental point of view. It’s something which the spirit understands.

Like I said, a lot of audiences come up to me after a show and say, ‘That was a very moving experience.’ They couldn’t understand it, because you try and understand with your mind, but your spirit understands that. It is my spirit singing.

When I sing, I invoke my spirit to sing with me. Now spirits understand their own language, their own form of communication, and I strongly believe that communication is music. Within our Scriptures we have the mention of the inner musical, unheard musical notes. There are musical notes within us which are there all the time which are resounding. And once you have invoked your spirit to sing with you, they invoke those unheard notes within you which is the form of communication with other spirits. And that is the form of communication that I use, it’s not language, it is something which goes beyond the realms of the limitations of the mind.

Rachel Kohn: You actually told a story yesterday about someone who was tone deaf, and who somehow managed to sing after he had got in tune with these, what, these notes that reside within.

Dya Singh: Exactly, yes. It’s very interesting that I have some students who other teachers have given up on, and said, ‘Look, you can’t sing.’ Perhaps they can’t sing in public, I accept that, but the point is that they’re still able to enjoy musical notes if they are able to invoke their inner self.

This is a gentleman in Adelaide who is considered to be tone deaf, yet he’s a very strong person who meditates, a spiritualist for want of a better word. And after about five lessons where he just couldn’t hit one single straight note, I happened to jokingly said ‘What’s your form of meditation?’ He said, ‘You want to learn it?’ I said, ‘Yes, of course I’m always interested in meditation.’ He went into his meditational mode, I allowed it to go on for about ten or fifteen minutes, until he came pretty intense.

I said, ‘Now, give me that same musical note again.’ And he hit a perfect C. And there was proof that if you have your spirit with you, singing along with you, you are able to not only reach yourself, that inner self which is beyond our imagination, beyond our limitations of the mind, and with that you can actually reach other spirits as well. Now that was proof that music is a universal language amongst all of us.

Rachel Kohn: I’m interested though that you don’t just sing, I mean you sometimes stop and talk to your audience, and you tell them, ‘Look, if you don’t get this, go home and think about your spirit.’

Dya Singh: Well that’s right. I think, yes, well I always say that most of the concerts that we do are actually workshops.

First of all, believe you me, nothing is prepared when we go on stage. We never have a line-up of songs. You know most groups will have a certain repertoire, or sometimes you even have printed programs as to what they’re going to sing etc. etc. We had to do that in Japan by the way when we went, so that’s another story. But when we go on stage, the musicians do not have a clue as to what we’re going to sing, because the idea is to invoke the spirit and let the spirit decide. And all the musicians fall in line with that, and in the beginning when we first started as a group, there were problems, because it’s a process which people are not used to. But as time has gone on, my musicians excel in that; they enjoy the fact that there’s no preparation, go on stage and we perform.

In other words you are invoking your spirit and your technical ability with the instrument that you are playing, to accompany someone else who is a kindred spirit.

Similarly, what I say on stage is inspired by the spirit, it’s not something I am saying really, I’ll be honest with you, it is something which is inspired by my spirit that this is what you need to say to the audience now, so that they are able to open themselves up and communicate with you better, and understand what you’re trying to say. That’s the part of my music which I enjoy the most.

Rachel Kohn: Well one of the things you communicated to the audience yesterday was that the seven note scale is connected to the chakras, which is usually associated with the yogic tradition.

Dya Singh: That’s right, yes. Look the chakras are not officially mentioned in Sikhism, and I’m not sure, but I have the feeling that there’s no such thing as a navel chakra. I could be wrong, because I’ve looked at some books as sort of side reading to find out more about it, but it's popular amongst Westerners who are associated with spirituality and especially yoga.

The moment you mentioned the word ‘chakra’ they understand what you are trying to say, so that I’m using it more in those terms. My father never used the term ‘chakra’, never used it. All he told me was the base of your energy, the strength that you have is at your navel point, and you want to raise that strength of your energy from your navel point to your tenth aperture, which is commonly known as the Third Eye. And in the process that’s the eighth note, the navel note and the note which resounds as your Third Eye is saah,your eighth note, and you have of course six other notes in between.

Rachel Kohn: I wonder if I can ask you to demonstrate those notes for us now, because you actually let us through a wonderful meditation in which we were all resounding these notes.

Dya Singh: Tremendous. I wish that could be recorded in audience, because it’s amazing the kind of resonance which actually comes back to me. Well hopefully we can record that one day, actually.

Now the idea is to find your base note, your base not which resonates, which reverberates at your navel. So the first process is to look for that, and basically you relax yourself. Normally this is my exercise first thing in the morning, the moment you wake up and your throat is full of phlegm and all that, you’re trying to clear all that by reaching your base note. So of course that’s the reason why we don’t smoke and drink either, because that really screws up the process.

So you want to keep yourself as clean as possible, and you reach your navel. Your breathing is of course your life force. Now spiritual breathing is through your nostrils right down to your navel, and out again. So there’s a river of energy flowing into you right down to your source of energy, the navel, and then it flows out again. With that, you start a note which then vibrates at your navel. So I know that my first is this particular note so that’s my saah. SINGS All the time I’m concentrating on trying to get that vibration from my navel. I can feel the invocation of that spirit within me at my navel. Now I’m going to raise that, right in front of my spine, within my body, right up to my forehead, and this is how it sounds. SINGS. It’s at my ribcage. SINGS The bosom. SINGS The throat. SINGS The mouth. Makes a sound, pretty obvious. SINGS Sah. The opening of the Third Eye. Sah. I’ve got my energy right between my eyes, and it’s the opening of the Third Eye, and that energy is singing along with me. SINGS. I’ll bring it back. SINGS At my chest. Ribcage. Every note is an altar at which I go and pay my respects, and each altar is based on my spine, starting from my naval point right up to my Third Eye, and that is how you invoke your spirit. Meditation can’t be any simpler than that.

Rachel Kohn: No indeed, and it sounds rather good, too. Is the idea of the note as an altar something that is common in the Sikh tradition or is that a...

Rachel Kohn: Dya, I’m thinking that the Sikh tradition is not one that is widely known in the West.

Dya Singh: No, it is not, and the fault is ours actually. We’re better known as terrorists I think.

Rachel Kohn: Oh dear. Well certainly the Sikh Diaspora has grown of late, and I wonder whether you feel in a sense that you are bringing the tradition to the West, and also bringing the tradition to the West in a process of change, so that the tradition also changes.

Dya Singh: When we started off with this music about ten years ago, we had certain aims and aspirations, and one of the aims that I have always had was this feeling that I have such a wonderful gift with me, and I don’t mean music, I mean my way of life, my religion, the universal truths which it espouses, which are so different from any other organised religion that I know of.

Now if there was only some way that I could communicate this further, because these are universal truths which are important for this planet. And then it was like the bleeding obvious coming to me to say ‘Hey my prophets did it through music, and I’ve been gifted with a wonderful voice, I can do the same thing through music on a much more universal basis.’ And I have been inspired with this; I look upon it as a mission, and the mission being to try and bring this wonderful, rich source of universal truths, an easy method of becoming one with yourself, to the rest of the world. And I am not simplifying it, it is actually really that simple.

We have a tendency once we become an organised group, we have a tendency of putting on too many folds and layers on it that we have a tendency of hiding the truth and we cover it up with things like ritualism and to run the organisations you need money, so the focus becomes totally different from what the essence of it is. The masters meant it to be very simple and to be passed onto all human beings. And I am fortunate that I’m in this position where I can do the same with what my masters have already taught me. That’s my mission.

Rachel Kohn: How do you feel about people who kind of fall in love with you, fall in love with the tradition and become members of the Sikh tradition, is that what you want to engender, a bunch of followers?

Dya Singh: Oh God forbid, don’t become Sikhs. That’s not the idea.

Rachel Kohn: Are you Guru Dya Singh?

Dya Singh: Oh no, I’m not Guru Dya Singh at all, I’m just an ordinary larrikin who loves what I do, it’s as simple as that.

I think it is not the formalisation of the religion which is of importance to me, yes I think it is very important for Sikh youth we have an identity, which is very, very close to our hearts, and it will be very important for us to pass that on to our younger generation. But generally for people the idea is Look, there are universal truths.

You want to know more about Sikhism, yes, learn more, but that does not necessarily mean you have to become Sikhs. You don’t have to compromise your own way of life to that, but take on the universal truths, that’s what my masters intended, and that is genuinely what I intend. I do not want to make Sikhs, but I want to make sure that everyone becomes a seeker.

Rachel Kohn: A seeker, very good.

Dya Singh: A seeker. The word ‘Sikh’ means to learn, it means to seek, become seekers so that you better your lives. That is all I’m interested in. But of course if somebody wants to become a Sikh, go to India and look for a Guru then, don’t look for me. I’m merely the bridging gap, that’s all.

Rachel Kohn: I just want to ask you finally: I guess if there is an image of the Sikhs in the West, it is of the militant tradition that is very important among the Sikhs.

Dya Singh: You used the polite word ‘militant’, I say terrorists, because we are considered to be terrorists.

Rachel Kohn: Are you softening that, is it your mission to soften that in a way?

>Dya Singh: No, no. Look my mission is not to undo whatever is already preconceived.

Now the Sikh tradition, I think I also made a remark yesterday, I mean I have tremendous regard for the Gyuto monks for example, but I cannot spend 17 hours a day meditating. I have a life to get on with, I want to be able to get in touch with my inner self because I have a struggle to be a human being, and part of being that human being is to be able to defend the rights of those who are being oppressed.

In that sense we are militants, we will never ever turn away from that. The concept of a saint-soldier is predominant in Sikhism. We are saints, we are householders, we’ve got to bring up a family, and we like hell, we are soldiers as well, because we’ve got to defend our own rights, but more importantly we have to defend the rights of others. Right?

We are a little bit wary about the use of the word ‘karma’, for example; you know, a lot of people say ‘Oh look that person is suffering because that’s his karma.’ Like hell, get up and do something about it. You can change your karma by being active. So being active, if being active means being a militant, yes we certainly are militants, but we are no terrorists, because that is totally against universal truths.

We will not do anything to harm another human being, but we certainly will protect ourselves. Most importantly, we will espouse the universal truths to all human beings, and by the way I must also tell you this: those universal truths are the feminine side of every human being. Things like love, compassion, spirituality, saintliness, are the feminine qualities within a human being. The masculine qualities are the ability to defend yourself. So it’s the womenfolk who are on this planet, believe you me.

Rachel Kohn: We certainly need both.

Dya Singh: And those again, I’m talking of the truths that were espoused by our gurus, the feminine side of each human being is very important, and both males and females must have a masculine and a feminine side. The concept of saint-soldier. That is dominant within Sikhism, and like I said if people want to find out more what Sikhism is, hell, get in touch with me, I’ll tell you more, but there must be other Sikhs out there who would be able to tell them about it as well. But the important thing is to understand these universal truths.

Rachel Kohn: Well it’s great hearing about the Sikh tradition from you and thank you so much for being on The Spirit of Things.

Dya Singh: It’s really my pleasure, and once again thank you very much to Radio National for doing this interview with me.

Source : www.snsm.org.my